There has been a lot of threds on other sites Re Raymond hoser...
and some of the things he has done. whats your oppinion

Now that I am in a position to have an opinion, here we go: Firstly, for the record, Hoser is NOT a personal friend of ours, as has been stated on at least one other forum. In fact, the guy has been bashed one too many times in the course of his career, making it really hard to sift the paranoia from the facts in a conversation. IMO, his pioneering the process of voiding was an appalling disservice to both his own rep & herping in general, although I can understand it from a viewpoint of public liability costs.
However, it does seem to be conveniently forgotten that he virtually singlehandedly made it possible for any of us to privately keep herps, exposed numerous examples of govt & police corruption, & still to this day works & campaigns actively for the good of native animals nationally.
People slander him, insult him, & make firm statements as to his mental/educational/moral qualifications, all without having as much as spoken to the bloke, ignore everything he has ever done for their own benefit, purely to focus on the voiding issue, blythely ignoring the facts that he no longer does it, has refused EVERY request by other herpers to do it for them, & that a number of other people have also performed the proceedure, often with even less reason than Hoser. In fact, some of his most vocal detractors are people who have either done it themselves or requested him to do it for them, making me wonder whether this is the reason for their promulgating the hatred against the man. The hypocrisy makes me want to puke. Instead of bashing a bloke who's done heaps for the hobby, why not turn on those who make themselves out to be pillars of the herp world, while breeding & supplying the black market with exotics, creating or keeping voids of their own, or the numerous other incidents of underhanded dealings & skulduggery we are all aware of in the hobby?
Get the blinkers off, & have a good look at the morals of the herp game's icons before you start getting stuck into a bloke who keeps himself to himself & avoids the self-righteous posteuring of most forum contributors. The holier-than-thou attitudes so prevalent in this subject sicken me.

I have extended an open invitation to the man via email, to speak for himself directly regards the issue of venomoids (see quoted email bottom)
As yet I have no Response. My sole intrest at this point is determining the mans prevailing attitude toward the venomoid issue , to whit, if he stands by his action in preforming the so called operation and moreover if under circumstances he would willing or not to do so again.
I have read the mans own words about it from his website
snakebusters and smuggled

http://www.smuggled.com/SBSRep1.htm

[quote]Quickly one off pain next to constantly pinning and stressing hots at live shows[/quote]

Im sorry I dont buy that reasoning Jo, A snake Is A snake Is A snake, If it has a predeliction to being flighty and easily stressed, Why use it for demos, In either case its going to stress anyway. I point out Countless exhibitors manage to display even wildcaught vens using hooks, no pinning involved and the snake is no more stressed than it might be anyway,
any snake might be stressed by being exibited, regardless of being freehandled.

from his own site.. a contradiction!

[quote]We rarely restrict handling of given reptiles due to the lack of evidence of stress caused by it.[/quote]

Either handling stresses them or it dosent, venomous or not, as I said, Ive witness very experience people exhibiting intact vens with no more than a hook, further the animals didnt looked at all stressed to me.

more..[quote]Venomoid Snakes:
These are the ones who have had their venom glands surgically removed to remove risks to handler and public during live shows.
In terms of the operation itself, we use the most up-to-date methods as documented by Hoser (2004).
Short term pain experienced by the snakes through the operation itself that have been operated on is minimal and the long-term benefits to the said snakes far outweigh this short term discomfort.
[/quote]

pain of the op is minimal? BS, how the bloody hell would you know?, because it cant scream? discomfort you call it? let me remove a couple of your wisdom teeth with a pen knife and see if 'the short term disconfort is minimal' ! The benefit will be that you will never get a tooth ache there again! wonderful!


Minimise risk to the handler? Whats wrong with hooks, tubes?
Is the man confident and competant to handle vens or not? I wouldnt hold against him if he didnt have the nerve, I dont, But whats he doing exhibiting if he dosent? Thats not a good reason either.
Minimise risk to the general public? whats wrong with a decent snake pit? again wheres the competance required to exhibit safely, surely there are laws. Still not a good reason.
That fact that this is STILL on his website, is boding ill for me, unless he hasnt had a chance to update it, I jump to no conclusions yet.

more..

[quote]There are no adverse effects known on the relevant snakes, however advantages of the venomoid state include elimination of (adverse) bite risk from one snake to another of different species if and when they are put together during a show (for comparison purposes) or if transported togeather.
[/quote]

Done the first bit, Why are different species put together period?
Excepting bagged and carried together which Ive seen others do (no reported attemps of a snakes bitting another while bagged that ive ever heard) comparison bit is just , get an assistant to hold the other one and NOT close together!
Not buyin it!

[quote]More importantly, the venomouid state allows the snakes to be handled more casually by the handler, due to the elimination of adverse bite risk, the result being that the snakes reciprocate in kind and in turn become more tractable and well-adjusted.
[/quote]

NO Ray, they just become harmless. A cranky stressed venomoid retains its instincts to bite in defense, you havent removed that. Just means your not envenomated for your troubles in exhibiting a snake past the point that was fair, its telling you "I have had enough!"

[quote]The need to inflict pain on the said snakes with heavy sticks and hooks to handle in accordance with their venomous state is eliminated by the venomoid operation.
[/quote]

Say What, were talking about pain? A competent experienced exhibitor does NOT inflict pain on the snake with hooks, nor need heavy sticks. The 'operation' inflicts plenty!

[quote]Hence handling of these snakes for shows becomes a stress-free experience for the snakes, which is a result only (safely) attainable by use of the venomoid operation. [/quote]

NO. An experienced and competant exhibitor who knows his animals and uses a safty pit can SAFLY and stress free show them. Ive seen it!

[quote]The benefits of the venomoid state go far beyond what is seen by the public in the shows. Off-display, snakes need to be cleaned, moved about, their cages or boxes cleaned and all regularly inspected. It is here that the benefits of the venomoid state for the snakes realy becomes apparant and manifests in better adjusted reptiles that are in no fear of humans poking, necking and hooking them as would otherwise be the case.
[/quote]

Same old, see last response to same.

[quote]So obvious are the benefits of the venomoid state that in 2004 alone, Raymond Hoser/Snakebusters received over 200 requests from people with venomous snakes to perform the venomoid operation on their snakes, including at least three other (rival) reptile demonstrators. (For legal reasons we are unable to operate on other people's reptiles or trade venomoid snakes).
[/quote]

Now thats intresting! What legal reasons? libility? Whats the legality of doing it to your own?
Libility itself is not a legal reason, its a 'cover my a**' reason. Really like to see some paper on this one!

[quote]The only known affect of handling well-adjusted reptiles for shows and the like is that the extra movement seems to work up an appetite.
Hence the day after a show (or string of shows) tends to result in voracious reptiles devouring any food put in front of them.
[/quote]

Why is that thrown in? wheres the relavence, whats the claim?
The claim appears to be that so well adjusted are venomoids that it improves their appetite, as opposed to? intact vens haveless appetite?
C'mon stick to facts mate, stay relevant, if they have good appetites great, but dont imply that intact vens used for shows are any less well adjusted or healthy by comparisn, its a spurious 'snake oil' variety claim at best and sounds alot like
its said to bolster the readers beleif in whats been written about them. no more than that.

And thats all its says about it. If he still stands by that Im dissappointed to say the least, but as I said, Perhaps he no longer does, but hasnt removed it because he still shows the voids, never the less, it seems to say the same.



Having considered his reasons given for doing, I find myself disagreeing sharply, I do not accept his reasoning is valid. I am yet to hear of any logic or data suggestiong otherwise.

AS for my general thoughts of the man himself, That is my buisness and mine alone, I have read excerpts from his papers and his smuggled books and found them an intresting read, however I am not in any position to be able to judge the merit or integrity of anything hes written, therefor Im not intrested in doing so. Since I have not met the man, neither have I had any opportunity to form any impression of him what so ever.
This said I have also read many links pointed out to me, regards the man, written by others of good standing, and heard plenty about the man from persons Whos integrity I trust and whom Do know him personally, over the last 5 years.
Unfortunately for Ray, his detracters appear to far outweight his supporters atleast in the herp world.

Never the less, as stated earlier, My personal opinion, if and when I form one about him, will be my buisness and mine alone.
My only intrest is the venomoid issue and the prevailing attitude toward it. No so long ago most people accepted cutting dogs tails off for no better reason than it looked the part. We no longer accept the 'shovel' attitude, and personally I see no difference in that and reasons expressed for cruelly removing venom glands. Its my hope that this practice goes the way of the do do sooner rather than later, and its my feeling that exhibiting snakes treated thus, merely re-inforces the acceptance of it, among the general public who have little enough positive outlook for snakes as it is!
Further that his proclaiming it in such light as a positive thing, on his website does likewise, and makes apparent that his own attitude about it has not changed.

It is my firm beleif that the practice is cruel and unnessesary. Period.



quote]Dear Mr Hoser,
You don't know me, But Im inspired to contact you because I keep Reptiles, recently on a site called the Herphouse,
http://www.theherphouse.com/forums/index.php?
A thread About you was begun, but it was not to attack you as so many do but rather in your defence. From about 5 years of hearing all kinds of stories about you, most appeared to negative.
The majority seem to focus on the practice of creating venomoid snakes,
Which you are quite famous for one way or the other.
Im informed by some decent folk that you have not done this in years and no longer do so.

My curiosity about is aroused by this controversy and I have a desire to comprehend the reasoning for even having performed it. My feelings are that that there is no merit or benefit to be gained from creating a snake, which to all intents appears to be venomous species yet is unable to do so.
I understand the apparent intent was to aide in educating the general public, particularly against the 'shovel mentality', This I can Understand, yet with devices such as snake tubes readily available, I still don't conceive of any benefit.

Its my belief , as stated in the thread mentioned, that this will send an erronous message instead, appealing to male bravado, and perhaps inspiring innocent and possibly fatal mistakes in children who witness adults freely handling what are normally deadly snakes.

While I am appalled at anyone doing this to a snake, I have no intention of condeming you, rather because I don't know you, I have naturally questions about your reasoning for it in the first place, why you don't do it now and if you now consider it wrong to do and why.

I have personally done things that I now consider pretty horrible, beleiving strongly at the time in my conviction that it was right and worthwhile doing and that some real benefit would be ganed by doing so.
I deny nobody the the learning from mistakes, youthful idealism, enthusiasm, whatever it be, and see no point in condemning the person who has learnt and changed.

I condemn only those who continue it.

On the site I mentioned, I openly Invited you to have a voice for the purpous of answering these questions, likewise I extend the Offer on my own quiet little site 'Reptile Planet'

http://herproom.5.forumer.com/index.php?

Or the dialup version

http://z6.invisionfree.com/Reptile_Planet/index.php?act=site

However I understand that such an offer has been made before and that things went bad, and therfore I understand your possible reluctance.

However I am very intrested to hear from you on this matter, And quite happy to keep it strictly confidential. I have no interest in doing your name harm in any way, I simply wish to understand.

I will post this email on the herphouse to show that I have made such offer in good faith since it contains no confidential Information. Though a stranger to you, I offer you my word as a decent bloke that should you oblige my curiosity and ask that it be kept confidential, that it shall remain so.

I believe you have a right to speak for yourself and set facts straight, anywhere you are spoken of.
I hope to hear from you,
D.XXXXXX[/quote]

Though I deny nobody their right to express to express an opinion , Im surprised you decided to do so anyway Jo, It appears you have changed your mind. Good for you.

[QUOTE]The written word is open to interpretation, kali and dan you seem to have already made up your minds, I see no point in a public disscussion with ray contact him personally although I cant see what differance this will make.
[/QUOTE]

Incedently, I seem to Remember you being quite vocal against sombody who said they thought he wasnt too bright,
[quote]Kali you dissapoint me,

This thread is coming close to being nuked how dare you pass judgement on his mental capabilities.
[/quote]

but lo and behold, its ok for you to say it!

[quote]Not to bright a man has succsefuuly defended himself in various court actions litigated and won,

[/quote]



[quote]Instead of bashing a bloke who's done heaps for the hobby, why not turn on those who make themselves out to be pillars of the herp world, while breeding & supplying the black market with exotics, creating or keeping voids of their own, or the numerous other incidents of underhanded dealings & skulduggery we are all aware of in the hobby?
Get the blinkers off, & have a good look at the morals of the herp game's icons before you start getting stuck into a bloke who keeps himself to himself & avoids the self-righteous posteuring of most forum contributors. The holier-than-thou attitudes so prevalent in this subject sicken me.[/quote]

It seems you have information that most of the people you mention are not privvy to. Do you care to back your claims and provide evidence? to name them, and the allegations your speaking of? We are not ALL aware of these things mate, the average herper is relatively new to the game, and while certain names might be prominent and familiar, such claims as your making are not commonly shared for the same reason Im betting, you will not publically accuse anyone of such things, for fear of litigation.
Its not as though theres some secret club of herper gossips, where a new herper can join and find out such things after a secret handshake..is there?
Even if there were, surely such allegations are likewise merely opinions until proven, as you say most claims against hoser are.
Hosers smuggled books allude to many such allegations but provide little in the way of evidence, where is document charges/investigations into these people, and where are such made available to the general public?
Finding and cross refrencing such things would indeed be time consuming, particulary to those with little intrest in dirty buisness and 'herp dirt' to begin with.

Hosers venomoid issue IS on the otherhand, readily related to all and sundry, even new folk in the game by way of forums, petitions etc, not to mention the bloke himself hardly makes an effort to avoid such publicity, you said so yourselves. You can hardly expect other than what you describe then, until you stand and loudly and publically start naming these 'icons' and the deeds you alledge of them, untill they remain somewhat, 'obscurely famous' (yes an oxymoron as the case may be) and as you said, free of accusation.
Folk who dont have a clue wont care and can hardly feel obliged to 'do something about it'.

I didnt start this and wouldnt have bothered myself unless Ray had taken up my offer. Please Keep that in mind.

Notice to all Members Participating in this and any other 'hot'/controversial topic:


Unlike other forums, We at Reptile Planet Beleive in and strongly Support freedom of speech and your right to express an opinion and have a say. Since Our Site is not Aimed at children in particular, we assume you are not children until notified otherwise.
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One example of what I quoted: John Weigal has publically stated that his reptile park had voids on display, voids which were created by the parks vet. As to the other incidents I've mentioned, yep I have proof, backed up & verified by information I WAS made privvy to, and so you're saying that you & most herpers have absolutely no inkling of ANY dodgy dealings in the herp world... (You've never read petlink then?) but I'm saying nothing as that or they are not the issue here. An issue, BTW that was NOT started by me, either.

My comments above about negating offense to children by use a word , refer to this site "JOE", I never mentioned anything about what went on in the chatroom (mirc)! The chatroom referred to above is my own.
Regards what went on in the chatroom, you would have read my own comments there both to kali a number of times. So I fail to understand your disjointed threat to mail chat logs to my Daughter? This comment appears that you are somehow holding me responsible for things that Kali said? I am not a moderater there, nor Am I responsible for others behaviour. Please discuss with Col what I said to him via Pm about it at the time.
If you would like to discuss this further with me, please email me, or speak with netty (pm) in chat or pm me here, since its irrelavant to the topic. Ok

Re-Weigal having voids, this is indeed the first ive heard it, and no, I had no Inkling!
Yes Ive seen exotics advertised on petlink, I fail to see the relavance to weigal however. I understand that your saying anyone can see that there are dodgy folk about, I agree, but you mention Famous folk, 'icons' of the herp world. How Am I or fred blogs to know who is who hiding behind pseudonames? I have no Idea who those folk are nor any desire to know since I and I assume most new herpers, have no intrest in dodgy dealings.

Aye, I know, Infact I found it quite strange that col should suddenly choose to start not only his first thread here in christ knows how long after having switched to dialup, but that he should choose from the blue to restart a thread here that was 'nuked' the day before on the herphouse! Not only that, but that he should rejoin this version specifically to do so! very strange indeed now I come to think of it. And then not bothering to actually voice a comment of his own. Hes been very quiet suddenly too.

Our hosts terms of service include in the agreement that everyone agrees to when they join, that

If anybody wants to sue me, good luck to em , itll cost them much much more than they could ever hope to reap from it! You cant get blood from stone!

[quote: Re-Weigal having voids, this is indeed the first ive heard it, and no, I had no Inkling! /]

I dispute that one Dan, as I posted it in the HH thread re this subject. This was before you're posted intention to email hoser for his comments. Either this fact is irrelevent to you, or you have been debating without reading the other arguments that you are debating against. Am I to assume then that an email to Weigal will also be forthcoming?

[dohtml]<p class="pullquote">This is your pullquote.</p>[/dohtml]

dan i have been meaning to rejoin for a while..
and as far as not posting i have no real view on the subject but allways willing to see what other think. you and kali seemed to have a good chunk to say on the matter so i felt it only fair that you should have the chance to have a bit more to say on said topic and what better place then on your own site. along with giveing the members of
this (your site) the chance to have there say.
and as far as me being very quite of late i do not sit in front of my pc 24/7 and as you would also notice with the herphouse i do not post for the fun of it there are members who have not been there near as long as me who have more posts or getting close to having more posts then me your mate Kali is one such person.

Joe, your account will be deleted as per your request , please confirm(see below)
[this is the only instance where I will transmit the contents of a private message, I will not be accused of mistreating anyone. as for deleting posts, im sorry, it was already made clear your posts are permanant public record, unless you delete them yourself. they are not offensive, I see no need to delete them, in anycase there is no magic button to 'delete all x users posts, and I will not go through and do it manually. however if you wish your site banner removed im happy to do that? Sorry to see you go.]

Raptor when I said this is the first Ive heard of weigal involved with voids, I referred to it hearing from you, yes you said it two days ago on the hoser thread before it was nuked.
Re Emailing Weigal, now that you suggest it, why not do so yourself?
Weigal might atleast respond!

Colin, nice to have you back then, I wondered why you rejoined here after switching to dialup version since you said it was better. Re Kalis posts anywhere...FOR THE LAST F*CKING TIME, They are nothing to do with me, I am not responsible for what others do and say unless they are my children, and Kali iss not my daughter.

It appears Certain folk do not like the fact That I dare Question Ray Hoser Regards Venomoids, You are welcome to feel so but those loudly speaking of 'holier than thou postuering' ought remember that they also are plenty opinionated about certain things certain folk, with which not everyone will agree either. I did not start this thread OR the other one, I have merely voiced an opinion regards voiding itself and asked questions which have not yet been answered.

I have had no response from the man himself , I am therefore left to make of current circumstance, an effort to answer those questions for myself.
It is my feeling that rays continuing to promote voids both on his website and by exhibiting them and continueing to extoll his claims about them, reinforces the public perception, which is still hardly favorable to snakes as Is, that the venomoid state as he calls it, is the best thing since sliced bread, thats its acceptable practice, a good idea and that he would support anyone else who decided to follow suit.
This is hardly the actions of a man with any regret whatsoever, or whom now knows/beleives otherwise. This does not ring true of a man who 'made a single bad mistake years ago and now admits much less regrets it.
without hearing directly from the man himself his explaination of it, I have nothing more to say on the matter.
I will not close the topic and deny anyone their say, I will simply hope this thread is soon exhuasted and dies a natural death.

Joe, your account will be deleted as per your request , please confirm(see below)
[this is the only instance where I will transmit the contents of a private message, I will not be accused of mistreating anyone. as for deleting posts, im sorry, it was already made clear your posts are permanant public record, unless you delete them yourself. they are not offensive, I see no need to delete them, in anycase there is no magic button to 'delete all x users posts, and I will not go through and do it manually. however if you wish your site banner removed im happy to do that? Sorry to see you go.]


QUOTE
swmbo Membership, Today at 12:21 pm




Group: Members
Posts: 43
Joined: September 25, 2005

Please remove/delete all my posts, and my membership.
Thankyou


This is the only instance you will post a private message?
How dare you?
You have stated that private messages will not be posted, I requested my membership be deletated as a private person not as anyone affiliated with any site or other forum.

How can any one now believe any thing you say
You have just proven you are a LIAR and not some one of your word, IT WAS A PRIVATE MESSAGE NOT FOR PUBLIC VIEWING,


Any thought I had of changing my mind gone
Will be forwarding this to those who need to see

with the footnote
DONT TRUST A WORD THIS MAN SAYS

How stupid do you think I am ?
I thought you beleived in "covering your a**" Joe.
I will not be accused of 'silencing' anyone. There is nothing in that in any way offensive or sensitive. Do you want your account deleted or not?
You can behave as childishly as you want, throw yourself on the floor and have a tantrum, I dont much care.
I try to be reasonable and fair transparent as possible.
I beleive your asking was only done in spite and an effort to be able to claim spitfully and dishonestly that I deleted your account/posts to silence you, or at best make it appear so. You forsaw that I would cover my arse , and were hoping for the opportunity to say 'huh ,see he went back on his word',and thats exactly what you have just done. Your asking me to delete posts, full knowing our policy of not doing so, which I had just posted, was a deliberate and conceited attempt to have me leave myself open to your malicious and twisted allegation, and in the case of publicising your request, you succeeded. why else would you not make this simple request in the post openly? because you did not want to be perceived as a whinger 'take my bat n ball and go home' type. because the reason for the request would be transparently apparent.

were you to make such a deliberately twisted , deceitful and malicious allegation against me, you would be no better than those whom you bemoan treat Ray hoser likewise! Remember that!
Im sorry I wont play games with you.
You have chosen to have a negative attitude toward me because you dont like what I say, I cant help that.
I expect complete honesty and integrity of anyone I call a freind , and I respect there opinions even if I dont agree, Anyone that considers me a freind can expect likewise.
I dont turn on freinds because I disagree with them! My freinds know they can say what they like and we will still be freinds, they know they can be direct and frankly honest with me and that I will not hold it against them, that in fact I expect nothing less.
I will not bow n scrape nor kiss your arse to appease you because you do not agree with something i say.
This is an attitude that has made me enemys in the past but it is also one that has won me many true and devoutly loyal freinds aswell.
I stand by thoughts about the issue of voiding and rays apparent prevailing attitude weather you like it or not, and I have already said I understand Your support of the man and respect that.
There is simply nothing to argue about and no reason for your blatant hostility.
I am here if/when you come to grips with this, I bare you no ill will what so ever, though im surprised and dissappointed at your attitude.

If the thread continues to be be filled with off topic and unessesary hostility I will be forced to lock it afterall, which would be most unfair to other members, so please respect that and remain on topic.

Finally, from the mans own website

http://www.smuggled.com/VenArt1.htm

Therefore the whole ugly excersise and all the contraversy surrounding it is UNNESSESARY!
And That IS the final word ill have on this thread, im done with it.